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HIGH ON HOPE

Howard Marks talks to Free Radical Sounds

It's now a little over four years since this interview took place. At the time Howard had been released from his incarceration for less than a year. Since then nothing much has changed, marijuana still hasn't been legalised or even decriminalised. All the arguments and points raised remain the same therefore we feel this is still very much a relevant issue and interview.

Hopefully after reading this you'll have all you need to defend the harmless weed. If anyone out there can eloquently argue the case for the continued prohibition of marijuana then get in touch with us at the email address's below.

On April 9th 1995 Howard Marks was released from Terre Haute, America's toughest penitentiary, after serving seven years of a twenty five year sentence for racketeering. Since being released Howard has kept himself busy in a variety of ways. He's written his best-selling autobiography Mr. Nice (ISBN NO 0 436 20305 7). He's recently released Howard Marks : A Video Diary. In 1997 Howard

stood in the UK general election on behalf of the Legalise Cannabis Party [and did very nicely thank you]. Howard has also had songs written about him, been involved with DJing, remixing and even this interview has been sampled to buggery by anyone who could lay their hands on a tape of it.

Here's the interview :-

B: Legalise or decriminalise?
H: Oh, very much on the "legalise" as far as cannabis is concerned, for sure. And probably as far as anything is concerned. I think I'd probably like to decriminalise almost everything. But for marijuana, and many drugs, I would like them to be legalised without any controls over what age people should be when they take them, or where it should be grown, or even where it should be sold'. That's very idealistic, I know, but whatever is achieved in the area of decriminalisation of any kind, or legalisation of any kind, I would see as some sort of step towards that ideal.

B: Surely if it was legalised though, you're gonna get people like Philip Morris, Marlboro …
H: If you let the tobacco companies take over the business of what you consume then yes. You're likely to get Philip Morris and people like that. But why would the tobacco industry be at all interested in marijuana?

B: I've heard that they've got all the packaging already sorted.
H: No, that's all nonsense.

B: You think that's all nonsense?
H: Well I know it's all nonsense. Or at least it was, I mean, the rumours have been around for several decades. The archetypal one being that Philip Morris patented "Acapulco Gold" way back. I researched into this, and in fact you can't patent a name like "Acapulco Gold", because it's generic. You couldn't begin to use that as a patent under American law. Neither Philip Morris nor any other tobacco company have tried to patent a name in readiness for legalisation. The tobacco companies have never, ever, shown any interest in the dope business. And why the hell should they? because Marijuana can be smoked as well? I don't see why it should be sold in tobacconists; it can be, but I don't see why it should be restricted. And I don't see any relation between marijuana and tobacco. It's a smoking mixture, and that's its only similarity with tobacco.

B: I would go against legalisation because I'm sure you're going to get multinational corporate companies coming in, taking over and trying to run things.
H: Only if marijuana is worth anything. And why on earth should a weed that can grow in your back garden be worth anything?

B: Right, so legalise, grow it everywhere, and take the profit margin out.
H: Yes, yes, it's there.

'It's on this planet for all of us to use. There is no need for anyone to make vast amounts of money out of it, unless he's particularly skilled at something like growing it, or getting it to you very quickly'.

Now, if a multinational company can come along and make better dope, grow better skunk, then they can charge whatever they want. Sure, fair enough. Meanwhile, we can carry on trying to make our own super-skunk. So there's no reason it should be attractive to the companies as long as you don't have decriminalisation. If you have decriminalisation, then you're going to have the multinationals jumping in because you won't be able to grow your own as they'll be age-limits and all kinds of other restrictions. So it's got to be legalised for it not to cost anybody anything. Then the multinational companies, and especially the tobacco companies, won't really be interested.

B: This idea of making it grow everywhere, surely we could do that anyway? We could hire aeroplanes and drop 5 million seeds, for example.
H: Well, we do this to some extent. We had balloons go up and drop seeds, we've had a "Sow The Seed" campaign where we've encouraged everyone to throw seeds everywhere, and grow it everywhere. We have this slogan, "Marijuana Not Motor-ways".

B: Tell me how it came about, you standing for parliament?
H: Somebody proposed it to me. I attended a cannabis conference in London. I spoke a bit in a "Question and Answer" thing because I'd just come out of prison, written a book, etc. etc.. They came on to me then, these people from the Legalise Cannabis Campaign. I'd heard of the organisation for a very long time. There'd been a strong pro-legalisation campaign going on in Norwich and they asked if I'd take the place of the person they'd put forward as the MP. Not that there was any rift between them, but that had always been their intention. For someone high profile such as myself to go in there, because that would get more publicity. Just to use my notoriety to increase the awareness of it. I talked to them to make sure that there was consistency in our views, about legalisation and decriminalisation, we believed the same stuff and so I agreed to stand.

B: I was watching the news the other day and they had the House of Commons on there. My friend turned to me, and summed it up in two words: "Pie fight". Let's all pretend to be leaders.
H: Well, they've no experience of life you see. They've just led very silly lives on the whole, less and less as time goes on, but on the whole just very, very silly lives. Most of them haven't taken dope, they don't go out and do what people do, and they haven't for a very long time. It's just a kind of entirely unnecessary kind of garbage.

B(Then something extraordinary happens, when Howard’s phone rings)
H:(To phone) Hello, hello, hello? Oh yeah? 'Ow ya doin'? I was going to say hello until I recognised your voice. Now I recognise you. How are you doing? Yeah. Well, I will have to see you midweek. Anyway right, so don't come down specially, I just will have to see you about then, alright? yeah, well, I'd like to see you Wednesday if possible, yeah. And I might have to see you shortly thereafter again, you know? But, everything is OK, yeah, everything is OK, there's all kinds of headaches and problems, but everything is OK. There's nothing er... new. I won't even... everything is OK. Rewind, everything is OK. Alright, yeah. Is the other one down 'ere? OK well I might just give him a... just for socialising I mean now, OK, alright then, I will, bye now. (Rings off and looks up) H:I assume that was recorded, so if anyone works out it was obviously a fucking dope deal. (Laughs)
B: I didn't listen to the conversation actually.
H: It's alright, you can sample it if you want.

B: Yeah, right, what's your views on that? Do you believe sampling is theft?
H: Not in any sense whatsoever. No I don't believe it's theft because to me theft is taking some kind of tangible property which belongs to somebody else, whereas sampling is taking advantage of the creative output of an artist. OK, now the artist has two choices: either to create and let the world benefit from his creation, or keep it all to himself and jack off over it every time somebody else uses it. And I think it's rather sick to see the latter one happening.
B: Spot on. I couldn't agree more. Right, let's go back. History. "Mr Nice", the book. I'd like to talk about the introduction now - that goes into how you got the name Mr Nice. Could you talk about that?
H: Yeah, sure. The real Mr Nice is called Donald Nice and lives in Norwich (laughs) - it's true - or, did live in Norwich in the mid '70s, perhaps still does. We had some friends in common, and I was looking for a false passport, which means I was looking for a real person, about my age, who didn't need a passport; or, needed whatever I could give him more than he needed a passport. And this guy, Donald Nice, emerged as a suitable candidate. He'd just done twelve years for murder I think, wasn't interested in travelling, and needed money. I think I gave him about a grand for it, and a few hundred quid from time to time, to keep it going. To get me more documents to back it up, and so on. So, that was his name, and so that became my name. The short answer is therefore: I didn't choose it, it was given to me - sold to me!

B: Will you open a coffee shop if the law changes?
H: If the law changes, lots of people will open coffee shops.

B: But would you?
H: Not automatically. I mean, if a bunch of guys I liked wanted me to, or asked me to, and I felt, yes, this'd be nice to get involved with, yeah. But I don't automatically think, "Yeah, let's get dope legalised so I can go and open a coffee shop."

B: So, no real urge to push coffee to the people?
H: No real urge to push anything.

B: So, you've retired have you?
H: No,

'I don't think I ever pushed dope. I felt it was sucked out of me (Laughs). Well, the supply was always much greater than the demand. So the idea of a pusher, I don't know'.

B: You said that possibly the largest amount of dope you've ever seen was about 60 tonnes
H: Well I think it's about 50 or 60 tonnes. At least 50 and probably 60, yeah.

B: Could you explain how big that actually is?
H: What, in terms of like, a building or something? I'm trying to think of something to compare it to.

B: A garage?
H: Yeah, but garages vary. I'm trying to think of a building which is always roughly the same size. And of course it depends whether you're talking about marijuana or hash. As to the size, if it was marijuana it'd be about...(thinks about it) 15 prison cells

B: (Laughs) Yeah right, you don't go round the world measuring everything in prison cells do you Howard?
H: (Laughing) Well I was just trying to think of something that people could maybe relate to, you know. Something which is always roughly the same size. A garage varies too much. (Much laughter) A prison cell is pretty much the same size. Least, most of the ones I've been in have. All the fucking garages are different, right? (Laughing)

B: (Stifling laughter) You go round the world measuring things in prison cells!
H: (Still laughing) No, no, just large amounts of dope. (More laughter)

B: Ah yes, that's five prison cells' worth there. Fuck that's funny.
B: Do you think about the guys back in prison?
H: Oh yeah, every day of course.

B: Has anyone got out since you, that wasn't expecting to?
H: That wasn't expecting to get out? No.

B: When finishing the book, you say that lots of them aren't going to get out.
H: Well, lots of them just will not get out, unless there's a change in the law or they escape. They're gonna die there. They're buried alive, that's it, they're not going to get out. Unless the law changes, which it might, y'know?

B: Do you have people there, that you'd consider as close friends?
H: Yes, a small number, but yes, some very close friends I made in prison, sure.

B: Are buried alive?
H: And they're buried alive. (Sounds sad)

B: So, does that kind of act like a ghost?
H: Well, it makes me feel guilty for not writing more often than I do. That's how it affects me directly.

B: It's a monkey on your shoulder.
H: Yeah, yeah.

B: Will you ever escape that? Has the DEA put this is there this kind of dark shadow on Howard Marks' shoulder?
H: Are the DEA following me, do you mean?

B: No, as in the ghost of the time you spent in there. Do you feel it will always live within you now?
H: Well I hope it never leaves me. I hope the feeling and the reality of it never leaves me.

B: Is that to prevent you from doing what you did again?
H: No.

B: Do you feel any guilt for what you did?
H: Any guilt![sounding surprised]

B: Do you feel that you took the wrong path? Would you do it all again exactly the same?
H: Oh, I'd leave out every single bad bit, of course. This is something which I am asked a lot, and the only answer I can give which has held true constantly is that I wouldn't have risked my wife's incarceration. Had I known what I was doing, I didn't think I was, and therefore what I feel guilty about is risking someone else, my wife's, freedom without realising I was doing so i.e. being that fucking ignorant and not knowing that they could do that. So the regret is being stupid and ignorant about certain areas of the law - like US law.

B: When I tried to find a copy of the UK Misuse of Drugs Act it took me three different reference libraries to actually find a copy of the drug laws.
H: Yeah, yeah, but then you can't say you're ignorant as a defence. You can't get hold of it to find out what it is, but you can't say you don't know it. Ha, ha, ha.

B: Here's a list of all the drugs outlawed by the UK Misuse of Drugs Act. Is there anything on there you wouldn't legalise?
H: No. I'd legalise everything.

"I'd legalise the most poisonous thing in the world".

B: Pardon?
H: I'd legalise the most poisonous thing in the world. Because nobody's going to be taking that, are they? (Laughs) You don't have to worry as long as everyone knows what it is. I certainly wouldn't disguise it as sugar or anything, but I'd legalise it in the same way as electricity is legalised, and that's pretty dangerous. Cars as well. However dangerous and however poisonous it is, I think it should be legalised. And I think that society should deal with it in a non-prohibitive sense. There's plenty of experience of legalising lethal things. In America you've got guns, here you've got cars, alcohol, all kinds of things....

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